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Steve: But, you know it’s interesting.

On the subject of music, if I think of my granddaughter she had a piano teacher.

She didn’t like her piano lessons and the last few years my wife, therefore, her grandmother, has started playing piano.

She also didn’t like having a teacher, but Carmen started playing and she just gets better and better, slowly better.

Then she was spending some time with my granddaughter, Annie, playing pieces and all of a sudden Annie got interested.

So now she plays the piano a lot, but she doesn’t want a teacher and she’s improved tremendously.

As a grandfather or as a father or mother or grandmother, whatever, if you see your child or grandchild playing the piano and playing it well it makes you feel good, right?

But that’s not really justification for forcing them to do something that they don’t want to do.

Alex: Right.

Steve: But, but, I get back to what I said earlier.

If I had stayed with piano and if I could play piano well today I’d be happy.

So there is this element that sometimes the little eight-year-old doesn’t know best and that sometimes a little bit of stimulus and prodding, if done the right way, can be effective.

Alex: Yeah.

I think to take off something from the point you just made is, in your case, if instead of playing football with your buddies or going out and playing hockey that you did play piano and you did develop this higher-than-normal skill and now, today, you were an accomplished pianist in the midst of everything else that you do it would be nice.

But, I think at the same time often with that we tend to then overlook the fact that our childhood may not possibly have been as enjoyable or as liberating and we may not have experienced as many positive things through that time.

Steve: Right.

Mind you, yeah, I definitely enjoyed going down to the park and playing ball or in the winter playing hockey.

In Montreal there were the outdoor rinks and you could go down and play.

Could I have sacrificed some of that?

Even without being a concert pianist, if we have friends over and I can sit down at the piano and play music I mean that’s great, right?

And I have nothing but respect for people who can play music, so there is some value there.

Yeah, it’s hard to say.

Alex: I think with that, too…

Steve: Well, one thing before I forget.

Alex: Okay, sure.

Steve: I wanted to say one thing.

Apparently there was a lot of controversy surrounding this Tiger Mom issue, because it became again one of these issues where okay, the Asian way or the Asian-American way is better than the Western way.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn’t.

And this went back and forth.

But, someone pointed out that a number of Asian-American kids came forward to say yeah, I had a Tiger Mom.

I hated it.

It was very unpleasant.

So, I think some kids react well to this kind of treatment and they don’t mind the discipline.

It might be.

We don’t know how many kids actually have unpleasant childhoods because they really, like me, want to be down at the park playing with their buddies and they were forced to sit at the piano while their mother stood over them and slapped them around every time they got it wrong.

Alex: Yeah.

Now, I’ll bring up a story of a close friend of mine in high school.

He was Korean-American born in the United States, but his parents were both from Korea and had immigrated 25 years ago or something like that.

Anyway, his mom was the typical Tiger Mom, I guess.

She wasn’t as strict, but at the same time he grew up playing piano, playing violin, for how ever many years.

I don’t even know how many years it was, probably at least a dozen years of each and by the time he graduated high school he had a senior recital, which was just him doing all his instruments, including his piano, including his violin.

But, about three years before that he had picked up the guitar and that was something that he really enjoyed.

He became passionate about the guitar and so as soon as he finished his senior recital he dropped violin, he dropped piano and he says okay, I’ve accomplished what my parents wanted me to accomplish with this.

Now he continues to play the guitar, continues to sing and, really, I think he benefits from that musical exposure, but at the same time it goes to show that his parents wanted him to do these things.

But, in fact, now that he has more freedom he says I don’t want to do those.

I want to do this.

I enjoy this more.

Steve: You know I think this is something that I find in other cultures, Asian cultures, even Middle Eastern cultures, the idea that every human being, like your child, is actually an independent human being.

They have their life to lead.

So, you can influence, you can advise, you can help, you can support, possibly discipline, but you don’t own that life of your child.

Some of the stories you read about the kinds of pressures that are put on kids, what they’re allowed to do, not allowed to do, who they can marry, who they can go out with and all this kind of stuff, to me it’s very oppressive; the idea that you feel that you have some kind of ownership over somebody else’s life just because he or she is your child.

So, I think, yeah.

I mean there are some people you can slap them around, pull their hair and it doesn’t bother them at all.

I was that way.

I mean when I was growing up there was more physical punishment, right?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So, yeah.

I mean at school I used to get hit all the time.

My parents would slap me.

I got the cane.

I got welts on my bum.

It didn’t bother me at all, but I think there are people who, in fact, can be almost marked by that and we don’t know who those people are.

Alex: Absolutely.

I can say from personal experience that when I was growing up, of course, me and my siblings are different.

My middle brother is the complete opposite of me.

I would say I’m more sensitive.

I’m more reactive towards certain things and say more easily affected by what people will say and do, but he doesn’t care.

He just doesn’t care.

You could say whatever.

You could do whatever.

It doesn’t matter.

It’s a personality difference.

Steve: Right.

Alex: I think even though we were raised in the exact same household with the exact same parents, the exact same siblings and went to the same schools, so on and so forth, that as time went on we grew more and more different.

Steve: Right.

Alex: Right?

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: Now, we still get along, but we’re totally different.

Steve: Right.

Alex: So to say that every kid should do the exact same thing because this is the golden keys to success, it’s simply not true.

Steve: Right. However, I mean I also have some sympathy for the Tiger Mom, like the Tiger Mom wants to do that.

I mean I certainly wouldn’t want the state to come in and say you are not allowed to do that, you know?

So that’s her thing.

It could be a cultural thing and her children may be the next generation of Tiger Moms or they may react against it.

So, I think we can have different kinds of ways of bringing up your kids, different kids.

I mean I believe in diversity, variety, free choice.

I sometimes sympathize with the Tiger Mom to the extent that I think sometimes things are too easy.

Quite honestly, I think the schools in North America are too easy.

I think some of the junk that we have on television is just…I can’t watch it.

It’s just terrible.

I just think that some of that influence from Asia is probably a good thing, so if we have more immigrants from Asia now and they influence, you know, certain things in our culture it might be for the good.

Alex: Well, I must say, though, having recently been in China and, also, watching a lot of Korean TV as well, they have their own silly things.

It’s no more serious than it would be here.

Steve: Right.

Alex: But, I agree. I think reading the article, the article that she wrote about her book…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …this is Amy Chua…

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: …it wasn’t that bad.

She did a good job at explaining why she did this and so on and so forth and she didn’t have this air of superiority saying oh, we are so much better because of this, but it was the title that kind of got to me when he says “Why Chinese Moms are Superior”.

Steve: Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Alex: So I think this notion is, in fact, quite dangerous.

Who are we to say that we’re better or worse?

Steve: Right.

Alex: There’s, in fact, positive elements to each culture.

Steve: Right.

Alex: And there’s negative to each as well, so.

Steve: The best mom is your own mom.

All right, we’ll end up on that note.

Alex: Yes. Cool.

Steve: Okay.

Alex: Thanks for listening.

Steve: Bye. Thank you.

Alex: Bye-bye.

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Steve: Hi Alex.

Alex: Hi there Steve.

Steve: Well, we’ve had a request and we love getting requests, because then we don’t have to scratch our heads to think about what we’re going to talk about.

We did have those two sessions on proverbs that relate to language learning and Yukiko in Japan has asked us – I believe it was her – to talk about this “Tiger Mom” controversy.

Alex: Yes, the topic of Tiger Mom.

So, I must say, I, myself, was unfamiliar with this, so I did read the article posted by Amy Chua about it.

But you, of course, have heard of it before and were familiar with it.

Steve: Right.

I had seen a reference to this somewhere on the Internet.

And just sort of a quick summary for those who aren’t familiar with the whole Tiger Mom discussion, Amy Chua is, obviously, a high-achiever professional lady.

I think she’s a professor at Harvard.

Alex: I’m not sure.

Steve: Okay.

I think she’s a professor at Harvard Law School or something and she wrote a book about how she brought up her two daughters.

Her style was to shout at them, tell them they were no good, pull their hair, force them to play I don’t know how many hours of piano every day.

I mean she was a very tough mother.

She sort of implies in the book, although I haven’t read the book, but judged by the article, that this is typical of Chinese moms, Chinese families and that this is a good thing because it makes their kids achieve more.

So that sort of started off this great controversy and some people said yes, the so-called mainstream or white or whatever you want to call them…

Alex: Western is the term.

Steve: …Western moms are too lenient and indulgent and stuff.

So, what’s your take on this?

Was your mom or is your mom a Tiger Mom?

Alex: Not at all.

My mom is quite the opposite.

One of the reasons is that I’m one of five kids.

I’m the youngest.

My oldest brother is only five years older, so it meant that my mom had five little kids running around.

Steve: She was busy.

Alex: She was busy.

So she didn’t have time was the biggest thing to make sure that we did this or did that and did this and did that.

I mean of course she was active, but she gave us a lot of freedom and, actually, she gave us a lot of independence and responsibility.

I wouldn’t say it was independence through neglect, but it was rather she deliberately took a step back when we said we wanted to do this and she said okay, you can do that.

From her perspective, by us doing that we would then grow and become more familiar and aware of the things around us and develop a stronger character and various other traits that I think are valuable in a Western society.

Steve: Okay. But, just to take the devil’s advocate position here…

Alex: Yes.

Steve: Okay, playing the piano.

I took piano lessons.

I hated them.

I was allowed to quit at the age of 12.

To some extent, I regret that I didn’t continue playing piano, but I just couldn’t play piano when my friends were out playing football or hockey, right?

So my mother, she actually forced me for quite a few years.

There was a lot of pressure.

Maybe she was a Tiger Mom.

Eventually she just gave up.

But, the point is to some extent doesn’t the parent have to force.

Is there not a requirement to put pressure on the kids to do certain things that are in their interest, playing piano, learning a language, I don’t know, being nice to the neighbors?

I mean whatever, it depends on the kid.

Obviously, if the kids are well behaved that’s fine.

If your kids are out, you know, vandalizing the neighborhood that’s another problem.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: I mean my take on the question would be, first off, the biggest issue that I come across with this is there’s this presupposition that things like playing the piano, playing violin in this case, even to the extent of getting good grades in your Math class or getting good grades in your English class or History or whatever that these are the fundamental achievements that are required for any sort of success in life.

I think that’s one thing that I highly disagree with.

I totally agree with you in that parents need to provide some push for their kids and need to motivate them, even to the extent of forcing them to do something when they want to just sit back and be apathetic.

The point where I disagree with Amy Chua’s philosophy is when the parent says this is good for you, so you do this, regardless of whether or not the kid is interested.

Steve: Yeah, I agree with you.

Obviously Amy Chua is an Asian-American, but there’s obviously an influence there of the Asian culture and when we look at what happens in Asia where kids, first of all, the hours of schooling.

I think in China, Japan, Korea, they have something like 12,000 or 13,000 hours — I can’t remember the number, but it’s something like that — a year versus say 900…

Alex: Twelve hundred, not 12,000.

Steve: Oh, sorry, 1,200, yeah, versus say 900 or 1,000 here.

Even in a country like Finland it’s like 800 and yet Finland does very well on all international comparisons of achievement.

And we’ve seen some of these cram classes in Taiwan where 70 people are in a classroom trying to learn English.

Well, that’s just a complete waste of time.

They might just as well be at home watching cartoons in English, you know?

So, to some extent, this is obviously overdone in the Asian culture.

But then, on the other hand, we see that Asian kids, presumably who have Tiger Moms, do better at school and so they are typically over represented, so to speak, relative to their share in the population, over represented at university.

So, you could argue that the Tiger Mom approach is enabling those kids to do better at school and therefore do better at university and, presumably, do better professionally.

Alex: In my mind, one of the issues that creeps up is that my personal philosophy when I was attending school, when I was in middle school, high school, it didn’t matter, my goal was not to get high grades.

To me that was just in passing.

I mean I did well.

I got B, B+, A- average, but at the same time I think that my success wasn’t dependent on me getting a 99% versus getting an 89 or a 79, right?

You know I’m not that old.

I’m still 21, but I see a lot of my peers who actually did get good grades and they’re in university now and they’re not really enjoying what they’re doing.

Some of them are, but just because they got good grades doesn’t mean they’ve secured a future.

Steve: No, that’s true.

I mean it gets back to one of my hobbyhorses and that is that the most important skill I think that you learn is the skill to read, because all the studies I’ve seen indicate that literacy tracks most closely to professional success or academic success, more closely than numbers of years in school.

There are people who spend a lot of time in school and seem to be able to hang in there; but, in effect, they may not end up doing very well professionally and very often it’s because they aren’t very literate.

But how do you get kids to read more?

Is it a matter of finding them things that they like to read?

Is it a matter of forcing them to read?

Yeah, music…I mean getting the kids to play the violin is really more about the parent showing off than anything else.

You know, George, would you please come down here and play the violin for your uncle and aunt or for my guests.

You know?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So it’s a bit of that, yeah.

I can’t remember who it was on our forum at LingQ, I think it was 3kingdoms, said talk also about hockey moms and helicopter moms.

Alex: Soccer moms, yes.

Steve: Soccer moms. I don’t know what a helicopter mom is.

Alex: Me neither.

Steve: No.

But your hockey mom-soccer mom, these are the moms and dads that are very keen for their kids to do well in sports.

And, in a way, in our North American society perhaps there’s more pressure on the kids to do well in sports sometimes and the dad who maybe never was all that good in hockey or soccer wants desperately for his son to be an all star.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: And I think there’s sometimes a lot of pressure there that’s not very healthy too.

Alex: Yeah.

I mean as I was reading the article I had to really put aside my own personal feelings about it, because I think as someone from the West I do feel the way that she’s describing.

I do feel that individualism is good, you know, to let people pursue things that they enjoy, not to force people to do things just because this reason and that reason.

I think I value the individual more than say a collective identity, but at the same time I absolutely do agree that that kind of thing exists here with regard to sports and I think with regard to other things as well.

The interesting thing is that in our society, in our culture, it’s often described as the parent trying to live through the child, trying to achieve their own dreams and desires through their own children because they were unable to do it themselves.

Alex: And we’ll just apologize if there’s any external noise.

There’s a couple of construction guys moving around outside, but yeah, bear with us.

So, let’s look down the list.

We have “Every picture tells a story.” This one, I mean, I think it’s applicable in many different situations, but if we say in language learning every language learner — if we take it to the person — has a different experience, a different story that they can tell of their language learning experience, I think that’s what a lot of what brings the value to it.

It’s through that experience that that person develops.

You have this blog post that you wrote several years ago: Having a Love Affair with a Language.

I think that’s one of the things where you see someone who’s very passionate about a language, spending a lot of time, devoting time to it, and I think the reason behind that is not because it’s not always a fiscal incentive, you know the desire to make more money, but in fact that they’re passionate about that language and passionate about that culture or some aspect of it that really gets them hooked.

I think that’s critical.

Steve: I agree and, as you say, every picture tells a story and every learner has their own story and their own sort of passion for the language.

And it’s certainly true just to say oh well, you know, if you learn this language we’re going to pay you X-amount more money.

I mean if it’s a small amount of money it has a limited impact.

On the other hand, if you said I will give you $1 million.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Yes, I think that would, but you’ll get $1,000 more a year or something, I think that has limited impact; whereas, the passion certainly is important.

Here’s one.

“Faith will move mountains.” This really applies to language learning.

Your confidence in yourself, your confidence that you will achieve your language goal, your determination to achieve that goal, has a tremendous influence on your results for a number of reasons; first of all, because I’m convinced that it influences the functioning of the neurons.

I’ve read a book on this, that you can influence your brain.

Now, people will say that it’s all one in the same.

How can your brain influence your brain, right, because it’s kind of all there?

But, in fact, you can force yourself.

You can have this strong sense of determination.

I want this to happen.

I want this to happen.

I believe it will happen.

I believe it will happen.

That improves the efficiency of your learning process.

Part of the reason is what Krashen talks about.

Is that, therefore, there is no anxiety.

There’s not what he calls the Effective Filter.

If you are afraid, if you’re constantly afraid of making a mistake, if you don’t think you’re going to succeed, if you’re leafing through your grammar rules to figure out which one applies here, these are all filters that prevent you from improving, but if you believe in yourself, you have that confidence, that determination, faith will move mountains.

Alex: I can speak about that in my own personal experiences with my foreign languages that I’m learning.

Is that sometimes when I doubt my ability, I find those are the times that I perform the worst, but when I have the confidence and the faith that I’m able to do it then I surprise myself a lot of the time.

Steve: And it is true that we surprise ourselves.

When we go in there and it’s like we’re just going to do it, you know, we just jump on that diving board.

We’re going to do our triple flip, half gainer or whatever, land in the water and, just totally, without any sense of anxiety, we’re surprised.

Wow!

I said that?

Where did that phrase come from?

Where did that word come from?

So, yeah, I think we are all capable of speaking better and doing better and we all have a degree of anxiety.

There is no language learner without anxiety.

I feel much more comfortable speaking English then speaking any other language.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So there is always a level of anxiety, but the lower, the more we can keep that level of anxiety down, the better we’re going to perform.

Okay, your turn.

Alex: Yes.

Okay, we have quite a few here looking through.

Steve: How about this, “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” You don’t want that one?

Alex: Ah, you can take that one.

Steve: All right. I always think we need fools.

We need fools.

We don’t want angels fearing to tread, okay?

If you’re a language learner you rush in.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: That’s mine, all right.

Alex: So here’s one.

“First impressions are the most lasting.” A lot of the time this is true in your relationships with people, but I think at that the same time in your relationship with a language.

Whereas, if your first experience with a language isn’t a very positive environment then that really sets the mood and motivates you to then learn that language, right?

Steve: Okay.

Alex: And, alternatively…

Steve: Yeah?

Alex: …if it’s a negative experience then I think that it can be detrimental too.

Steve: I think we have to be a little careful there, because sometimes some languages may sound to us not very attractive and I’ve had this experience.

And, yet, when you start to learn that language, the more you learn that language, the more you start to enjoy it, because there’s almost a sensual enjoyment as you start hearing the language and hearing how these strange sounds have meaning and so forth.

So, yeah, I mean Cantonese.

Some people say Cantonese doesn’t sound very nice compared to say Mandarin and there are people who think Dutch doesn’t sound very nice, but I tell you, if I get into Dutch and I enjoy it… Once I got into Cantonese I enjoyed it and if I do Dutch I’ll enjoy it.

So I think, yeah, first impressions can be important, but if you give the language a chance, the more you get into it very often the more you like it.

Oh, here’s one.

“Great minds think alike.” Okay.

This is an extremely arrogant proverb.

It means that anybody who agrees with me has a great mind.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: We’ll pass on that one, all right? Okay.

Oh, here’s one.

Alex: But I think that…

Steve: You try.

Alex: To take that “Great minds think alike”…

Steve: Yeah?

Alex: …I think to take it on the converse…

Steve: Yeah?

Alex: …I think, in fact, great minds often think differently.

Steve: Right.

Alex: …because they bring a lot of different attributes to the table.

Steve: Right or different perspectives.

Alex: Exactly.

Steve: And if every time we had a discussion everybody agreed we wouldn’t have much of a discussion, right?

Now, here’s one we want to stay away from.

“He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches.” We’ll pass on that one.

Alex: Okay.

Steve: I should say that, in fact, that is not true.

I was at a conference of language teachers in San Diego a couple of years ago and some of those people were –and these were non-native speakers — extremely competent in the languages that they were teaching and very dedicated.

So, I think in any profession you can find those who can and those who can’t.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: All right.

Alex: Okay. If we go back up a bit there’s one that says “Give credit where credit is due.”

Steve: Okay.

Alex: I see this one in the sense that in some people’s minds language learning is a competition with other people.

Steve: Right.

Alex: Right?

But I think that it’s important in this process of learning languages if you see someone else learning the same language as you are to give them credit.

Steve: Right.

Alex: You know to compliment them, recognize their abilities and, in fact, encourage them…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …and to have this positive relationship with people.

Not see it as they’re infringing upon what you see as my language or my characteristic, something that sets me apart, but to have this positive outlook upon other people who are doing the same thing.

Steve: Right and it’s not a matter just of saying it.

I think it’s also a matter of actually feeling it.

I think that any real, genuine language keener is just delighted.

I mean I’m always so impressed when I hear other people who speak whatever other language well.

I mean that’s tremendous, you know?

We’ve said it before; language learning is not a competition.

Hirohito said it very well in Japan.

There’s no finish line.

It’s something we all enjoy doing in our way.

It’s not a competition and everybody we meet along the way, like Pilgrims on their way to whatever, they’re out buddies and so we wish them well, absolutely.

Well, we’ve kind of gone on for quite a while here.

Alex: Yes.

Steve: I think that’s going to do for now.

Like there’s this great long list.

If people like this kind of stuff we can keep doing it.

So, let us know if you enjoy these and we can do some more.

Alex: Sure. We look forward to your comments and thanks for listening.

Steve: Okay. Thank you, bye-bye.

Alex: Bye.

Study the transcript of this episode as a lesson on LingQ, saving the words and phrases you don’t know to your database. Here it is!

Steve: Hi Alex.

Alex: Hi Steve.

Steve: How are you today?

Alex: Doing well.

Steve: Good.

Alex: Yeah. We had some snow last night.

Steve: I can’t believe this weather.

I was driving home from dinner and we had this big…almost like a snowstorm around 10:00 o’clock.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: And it was around zero centigrade.

Alex: Zero degrees centigrade; yeah, so 32 degrees.

Steve: Fahrenheit.

Alex: Correct.

Steve: Today, what is it 10?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Sunny and you look up in the mountains it’s covered in snow.

It’s like someone, you know…it’s as if we dipped the mountains in whipping cream or something, you know?

Alex: Yeah.

I was coming over the bridge this morning on my way to the office and I was amazed at how much snow there was because yesterday there was hardly anything.

Steve: Yeah.

Well, no, the snow was up there, but it covered the whole mountain.

Alex: Yeah, right, right.

Steve: In fact, the snowline was very low all yesterday because it was cold and it was wet and so the snow was falling fairly low.

There were parts of town and, of course, towards the end of the day we had snow right down at the bottom here, but then today it’s sunny.

Alex: Yup.

Steve: What am I doing here?

I want to be up skiing, you know?

And it is pretty spectacular.

We should make people feel jealous, you know?

Alex: Right.

Steve: If you’re up there on a day like today when there’s not a cloud in the sky, maybe a few clouds rolling in now.

So, you’re skiing up there and you’re looking over the ocean and you’re looking over Vancouver.

So you have this beautiful view and you’re in the snow and it’s warm and you can come down here and go for a jog in your shorts.

Alex: Right.

Steve: All right.

Alex: Anyway, the topic of our conversation is not, in fact, snow.

Steve: No.

Alex: But it is more English proverbs.

Steve: Right.

Alex: We had a pretty good reaction last time, so we figured we would continue with this list.

Steve: And, of course, we don’t know where we were on the list.

Alex: Right.

Steve: But, you know, before we start on the list, while I think of it there’s one that I want to do to start us off.

Alex: Yes.

Steve: Okay?

Alex: Yes.

Steve: It’s called “Leave well enough alone.” Leave well enough alone.

One thing I find with language learners, some people are perfectionists and they can be perfectionists at different points in their language learning.

Some of them already speak very, very well and they want to work on making their accent like a native and I can’t understand that.

I know people who speak English very well, better than most native-speaking Canadians and who have a pronounced, you know, Swiss accent or even Chinese or some other accent, but they’re easy to understand.

So, as long as people can understand you and you communicate well and you feel comfortable, leave well enough alone.

You’re there, okay?

Some people do this at the very beginning.

They want to nail down everything in chapter two.

Well, it’s just not going to work.

They’re going to forget most things in chapter two.

So, first proverb is “Leave well enough alone.”

Alex: Aha.

Steve: Your turn.

Alex: Okay.

So we have one here “Don’t try to walk before you can crawl.” This one is actually pretty interesting.

I think this one in a traditional language environment would be absolutely the case, where there are a lot of obstacles that are put in front of you and you’re not allowed to approach ones that are too difficult.

But, I guess I think it’s kind of the opposite way in the natural process of language learning where pretty much everything is up for grabs.

Whether it be a podcast or a beginner lesson or a radio program or an article in a newspaper or something, everything is available and I think through that you develop that natural sense.

Steve: Well and, of course, it is true that, obviously, the fewer new words in the text the easier it’s going to be for you and so that’s why we have our new words count, of course, at LingQ.

Yeah, I mean I like to deal with content that has fewer new words in it and progress from there, but sometimes it’s not obvious what’s easy.

Like sometimes when you say crawl before you walk then people who write these easy texts will make sure that they’ve only got the present tense and not the past tense, but on the other hand they’ll give you five colors.

I find that I can deal with different tenses, but I can never remember colors.

So, you know, it’s not obvious what’s the crawling and what’s the walking.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So, anyway.

But, it is true.

I think insofar as vocabulary, if you can grow from content that has few new words or stay with content that has a lower percentage of new words it’s going to make it easier for you.

So, to that extent, I think crawl before you walk is a good idea.

Alex: Yes, especially when you’re skiing.

Steve: You don’t want to be crawling too much, no.

All right, so what else have we got?

Oh, here’s one.

“Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.” I used to hear this when I was a kid.

Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.

Wasn’t there something about “Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy but socially dead”?

Alex: I haven’t heard that one, but I like it.

Steve: Yeah, that was the counter.

So, yeah, I mean, obviously, if we ate nothing but very healthy food, never touched a drop of alcohol, went to bed at 9:00, woke up…basically, went to bed at sundown and woke up at sunrise and then went outside in the cold and threw snow on our bodies, you know, it’d be good.

Now how all of this relates to language learning, because we have to bring it all back to language learning.

Alex: Of course, of course.

Steve: I just think that routines are good.

So, I mean, if you have a routine, whether it’s a routine of going to bed late and waking up late or whatever, but if you can develop a habit of always devoting an hour a day, two hours a day, however many hours a day that you have and do it regularly and develop certain habits, it’s amazing how we get used to habits.

I mean all these people who go to these health clubs, if they fall out of the habit, if they don’t go to the health club for a week or two then they stop going, but once they’re in the routine of going daily and they feel good and they remember how good they feel then they keep going back, right?

So, I think the trick there is to develop good habits.

Alex: Yeah, interesting.

So, moving on, I see another one here.

It says “Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.” This one is actually quite interesting because, as we all know, chickens before they’re born, I guess chicks before they’re born, they’re still growing.

They’re still alive, but they’re developing and so in the same way you may not be able to see the progress that you’re making in a language, but if you put in the time, if you spend the time then those will eventually hatch.

You know, proverbial hatch and you’ll see the results and the fruits of those labors.

Steve: Exactly and I would even add to that.

That as long as you stay with the program those eggs will hatch, even in your darker moments.

I always feel, honestly, if I’m sitting there reading in, whatever, Korean, Spanish, Russian, I always know that I’m doing myself good or if I’m listening.

There is nothing particularly happening, but I know that I’m just loading my brain with experience, with experience.

I’m renewing connections between neurons.

I’m grooving them.

I know I’m doing that, so I’m happy.

I know it’s getting there, because I know that some days I won’t understand something or I will understand or I’ll communicate well or I won’t, but I know that all that exposure with the language is just grooving it.

So, I do count my chickens before they’re hatched.

Okay.

Now, here is one.

“Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.” Gees, that’s pretty grim, actually.

We’re not about to die tomorrow, but I think the message there is to take advantage of the day.

There’s another one there “Carpe diem”, right, which is the Latin version of that.

Alex: Yeah, which we discussed last time.

Steve: Oh, did we do carpe diem?

Alex: Yes, we did.

Steve: Oh, we’ll move on then.

Okay, “Every cloud has a silver lining.” All right, every cloud has a silver lining.

That is often true.

That is often true.

So, again, referring back to this experience that everyone has in language learning that gee, you know, I was with some people and I couldn’t express myself.

I felt like an idiot or I didn’t understand what they were saying.

If you were in that situation where you were with some native speakers and you had trouble, but you were trying to understand what they were saying and you were trying to express yourself you were in a cloud, but the silver lining is that that was probably doing you a lot of good.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: That was probably helping you improve and when you tried to say something and you couldn’t find the words that made you think about the fact that hey, you know, I’m missing those words or I don’t know how to do that construction.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So then – I find I do this – when I go back then to my reading or my listening, I’m looking for those words.

I’m looking for that construction, trying to remind myself so that, eventually, the next time I’m in that situation or maybe not the next time, but the next, next, next time I’ll be able to perform.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So, every cloud has a silver lining.

Study this episode and any others from the LingQ English Podcast on LingQ! Check it out.

Steve: Hi Alex.

Alex: Hi there Steve.

Steve: How are you today?

Alex: Good.

Steve: I’m back from Japan.

Alex: Yes.

Steve: Two weeks there, great trip.

I met some of our nice “LingQers” in Osaka, in Nagoya and in Tokyo.

Alex: Yeah, there were quite a few LingQ meet ups in Japan, right?

Steve: Yeah, there were three and it was great.

The one in Osaka was very interesting.

Hirohide came all the way from Kyushu.

That’s three hours on the bullet train to join us.

Now, Hirohide has asked us if we would do a podcast about proverbs that might help motivate us for language learning.

Have you any ideas about what those proverbs might be?

Alex: Well, on our own we did not.

So I think what we’re planning on doing is we have a big, long, list of English proverbs and we’re going to go down and pick out some of them and see whether or not they’re applicable and what we can do with them.

Steve: All right, let me grab one here.

The list is in front of us and we’ll take turns grabbing them.

Alex: Sure.

Steve: Here’s one.

“A little learning is a dangerous thing.” Now that’s kind of interesting, because it is true that if you can only say a few things in the language but you can say them fairly fluently people might have the impression that you speak it well.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So you could get yourself into trouble, but really, how much trouble.

In a way, I never worry about making mistakes when I’m speaking.

Although, as you know, I do prefer to invest a lot of time and effort in input so that I understand what people say back to me.

Alex: Right.

Steve: If I say hello and they come back blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I can handle it.

So that’s one.

I don’t think it applies really though to language learning — a little learning is a dangerous thing.

What catches your fancy here on this list?

Alex: There are so many to choose from. Let’s see. Okay, here’s one.

“A rolling stone gathers no moss.” This is actually a pretty common proverb.

Steve: Right.

Alex: I think this one can be applicable in the sense of moss grows on things that are sitting still, inactive.

Steve: Right.

Alex: And so in my mind it promotes the idea of being active in your language learning.

Steve: Because you don’t want to have moss grow on you.

Alex: Exactly and it’s one of those things where the philosophy of doing a little bit each day so that you’re constantly moving and you’ll actually make more progress and have the language more fresh in your mind.

Steve: All right, here’s one.

“Absence makes the heart grow fonder.” I don’t think that applies to language learning because if you leave the language for too long you sort of lose your routine and those good habits that you have developed.

I always stress in language learning that it’s important to be consistent, to stay with it, to do it every day or almost every day.

So, absence makes the heart grow fonder if you are already in love with someone or with a language.

I guess in that sense I miss the fact that I don’t have time to spend on say Chinese because I’m busy learning Russian.

Alex: Right.

Steve: But, no. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

No, it doesn’t apply.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Okay, you choose one.

Alex: Okay.

Here’s one that says “Accidents will happen.” I think this one makes a lot of sense, especially in language learning where especially at the beginning of your journey in this language you’re going to make mistakes and, you know, say stuff incorrectly, write incorrectly, make spelling and grammatical errors and pick the wrong word and all sorts of things.

But that’s just the way that it is, you know, and if you accept that and are okay with making mistakes you’ll be fine.

Steve: Okay, here’s one. “As you sow, so shall you reap.” That’s definitely the case in language learning.

Alex: Yes.

Steve: If you put the effort in, if you listen daily, read daily, find opportunities to speak.

Or, in the case of LingQ, if you put the effort into creating links you’re in effect sowing seeds, because those links will then show up highlighted in the text that you read later on in the system, they generate the statistics, so that that investment in sowing the seeds enables you to reap the language later on.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So I think that applies.

Alex: Yeah. Here’s an interesting one too.

“An army marches on its stomach.” I think in explaining this proverb it means that, you know, they march with a hunger.

The hunger is what drives them.

I think with language learning you have to be passionate about it and it’s your passion that has to drive you to continue to pursue that language and learn more about it and grow in your knowledge of it and unless you’re driven by a passion I think success is a difficult thing, especially in language learning.

Steve: Right.

Now mind you, my interpretation of this is that you have to feed the army or it won’t march.

Alex: Ah, interesting.

Steve: But, I agree with you about the passion.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Definitely agree with you about the passion. Here’s one.

“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” Definitely applies to language learning.

I hear people say, you know, I don’t like this language.

I think such and such a language, you know, doesn’t sound nice or whatever.

Different people have different reasons for studying different languages…

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: …and once you start in a language, even if you are sort of lukewarm about the language and I’ve had this experience before, the more you get engaged with the language.

Korean is a good example.

I mean Korea is not the biggest country in the world and it’s certainly not the best-known culture in the world, but the more I get into Korean the more I can’t let go because it starts to grab you.

So to someone who’s not involved with Korean, Korean may seem an insignificant language, maybe not a particular beautiful language, but as you get engaged with it then you get turned on and so beauty is in the eye or the ear of the beholder or the listener.

Alex: Well put.

So here’s another which says “Better late than never.” I think this is really important and it’s the idea of you can learn a language whenever.

Like you don’t have to be seven years old or four years old or 14 or anything like that.

You know you, as an example, Steve.

Now you’re 65 and you’re continuing on.

Steve: I’m not getting any younger.

Alex: Exactly, but continuing on just as you were before.

Steve: Oh, yeah.

Alex: But I think, you know, as an encouragement to people who may be in their adulthood, midlife or even older that it’s better to learn a language late than to never learn it at all.

Steve: And I say that I’m a better language learner now than when I was 16 or 17 years now old and that’s, of course, because I have had all this experience in learning languages so I have more confidence.

I have a better sense of how to go about it, but I don’t sense, I don’t have the feeling that my brain cells are starting to atrophy yet.

Alex: Right.

Steve: Other people may think so, I don’t know. All right, here’s one.

Yours was “Better late than never.” There’s another one here, “Better safe than sorry.” That does not apply to language learning.

Alex: I agree.

Steve: Go for it. Get it wrong.

You have to get it wrong in order to improve.

It’s when we come up against situations where we didn’t understand or we had trouble expressing ourselves or we know we made a mistake.

So often we know we made a mistake or we’re pretty sure we did.

Therefore, we’re not worried about being safe, but it makes us aware and it makes us notice and it makes us want to go back to our language and learn more.

So, I think you’ve always got to be willing to throw your language, whatever state it’s in, you know, into the opportunity and nothing very bad can happen to you.

Alex: All right, so going down the list again.

One here is “Carpe diem”…

Steve: Okay.

Alex: …which is Latin…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …which means “Seize the day.”

Steve: Yup.

Alex: I think this one is great because it gets you off your feet.

Steve: Right.

Alex: It gets you active in doing stuff.

Steve: Yup.

Alex: It says don’t sit around and just, you know, try and kind of put it off until later but do it now.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: You know, listen to that or speak to that person or take that opportunity and learn.

You know, apply this to language learning.

I mean to life itself, but to language learning as well, where you’re not passive in the sense of you don’t do anything…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …but you’re actively listening, you’re actively reading and actively speaking and writing.

Steve: Yup. Okay, that’s a good one.

Here’s one.

“Don’t change horses in mid stream.” I agree with that and the relevance to language learning is that I think that to learn a language, to achieve significant progress in a language, you have to focus on it for a while.

So there’s no point in starting Spanish, doing it for three weeks and then switching over to, you know, German and so forth.

I think it does take a fair amount of concentration.

People often ask me do you recommend studying more than one language at a time and I say well, yeah, but I guess people are made differently.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: But in my own case, I always feel I have to have maximum two and a major focus on one at a time.

So I might go 80% now on Korean and still 20% in Russian, but certainly if you go one month here, one month there, one month somewhere else you won’t achieve very much.

It does take a lot of dedication and commitment, so don’t change horses in mid stream.

Alex: Yeah, interesting.

Actually, just another story; that has been my experience as well with Chinese and now I’ve focused more on Korean, as I’m headed to Korea in April this year, but it’s totally true.

I tried to do 50-50 between them and I found it really difficult to focus on one and to actually grow and it felt like a lot of just upkeep rather than progression.

Steve: Right.

Alex: So, let’s see.

Steve: It’s your turn now.

Alex: Yes. “Don’t rock the boat.”

Steve: Okay.

Alex: I’ll try that one.

I think this kind of applies with what you said earlier, Steve, about “Better safe than sorry.” I think it’s the opposite of this, where you kind of do have to stir things up and you do have to step out on a limb and take chances and be willing to risk maybe the proverbial sinking as you’re continuing to learn this language and grow in it.

Steve: Yeah.

Now, just to provide some balance, I’m going to take another one here that says “Empty vessels make the most noise.” And where it might have some relevance is, while we encourage people to talk and that’s been our experience too, that you have to just not worry about it and talk…

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: …but you also have to put the effort into improving.

You can’t just say well, you know, I can say hello and I want a cup of coffee and say that.

How often are you going to say that, you know?

So I think it’s important, unless you want to give the impression and get the reputation of being someone who just says a lot but has nothing of any consequence to say, which I’m sure we don’t want to be, then you do have to invest in a lot of this sort of input-based activity so that your vocabulary and even your familiarity with the culture and all of these things grow so that when you are in a situation where you’re interacting with natives that they actually consider you to be worthwhile…

Alex: Right.

Steve: …talking to…

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: …not just an empty vessel making a lot of noise.

Alex: Yeah and that’s a practical tip as well, because there are a lot of international students here in Vancouver and a lot of the time locals here will not want to speak to them because it’s this, you know, concept of I’m trying to improve my English which is why I’m talking to you and we can see right through that, you know?

Steve: Right.

Alex: It’s not valuable conversation, but it’s, you know, how much time can I get to speak with a native speaker?

Steve: Yeah. I mean that’s a very important point.

I mean language is for communication, so if I’m genuinely interested in you as a person and then I want to communicate with you then you might become interested in me as a person and then we have meaningful communication.

Alex: Right.

Steve: But if I just walk up to you and say can I practice my, whatever, Russian on you, that person may say well, actually, you know what?

I’ve got other things to do.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So, yeah, that’s an important point.

Alex: So, let’s see.

So there was one up there, it says “Every little helps.” I think “Every little bit helps”…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …may be a more appropriate form of that.

But it’s totally true that putting in five minutes before you leave for work, you know, to read that little article or on the bus you listen for 15 minutes, like every little bit really does help.

Steve: Absolutely. Absolutely, I do that all the time.

Every little bit, five minutes, three minutes, 10 minutes, it all adds up.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: And, of course, nowadays with your iPod and with the Internet or even just carrying a little book around like that every, you know, so-called dead minute can be utilized.

Alex: Right.

Steve: Now, let’s see. Oh, here’s one.

“Familiarity breeds contempt.” And the idea there is that if you’re too familiar…I think one of the references there is to the idea of danger.

Like if you’re so familiar with a certain situation you may become careless, so you are a little bit contemptuous of the dangers that are there.

With language learning it’s the opposite.

You want to build up familiarity and that familiarity with the language it’s just a gradual process of constant exposure.

And I always encourage people like when you are reading or listening and maybe you’re not focusing 100% and maybe you don’t understand it all, it’s all contributing.

It’s all making the language more and more familiar to you and the more familiar you are the more you take it easy.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So I’m not saying you have contempt for the language, but you have contempt for the difficulties of the language because you’re so familiar with it.

Alex: Right.

Another spin on this proverb is…well, the way that I would interpret it is with family members.

Say you’re so familiar with them that you start to instead focus on the negatives, you know, things that bother you about them rather than the fact that they’re good at this or they do that well or they’re gifted in this area.

But I think with language learning it’s, you know, as you say, the more time you spend with it really the more interested in it you become and the more enveloped and enraptured by it.

Steve: Yup. Okay.

Alex: So we’re already a little bit in, so we might do one or two more.

Steve: Well, we’ll do one more each.

Alex: We’ll do one more.

Steve: Okay.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So you grab one and then I’ll grab one.

Alex: Sure.

Okay, here’s one that says “First impressions are the most lasting.” Now, I would say with this one it actually does make a big difference with language learning because, for instance, if the first time you experience a language, we’ll take Spanish for instance, the first time you experience it is there’s some Spanish guy and he’s running after you screaming in Spanish, you know, angry at you, you did something wrong, but it’s not a pleasant experience then you probably won’t be as motivated to learn Spanish.

Steve: Right.

Alex: But at the same time if you’re sitting at a café and you see a nice Spanish “señorita” or something, you know, maybe that will motivate you more because it’s a more pleasurable experience.

Steve: Right, a person and/or music and/or different aspects of the culture.

I mean we know people who are motivated to learn Japanese because of various aspects of Japanese pop culture.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So there are all kinds of ways that that first impression can be what drives you to learn the language.

Let’s end on this one here.

Alex: Sure.

Steve: “Genius is one percent inspiration, 99% perspiration.” It always annoys me when people say well, Steve, yeah, you’ve learned a bunch of languages because you’ve got this ability but I don’t.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: I know that you work hard on your Korean.

I work very hard in learning my languages, very hard.

Not hard in the sense that I don’t like doing it, I do.

It’s very enjoyable and I think that’s important that you enjoy it, but I put in a lot of time.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: And if people would put in the time and if they have the attitude, some of the attitudes that came through our proverbs of being positive and interested.

But if they put in the time, the effort, the perspiration, they’ll be geniuses.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So I think we can end on that.

Genius is one percent inspiration, 99% perspiration.

Okay.

Alex: Cool.

It was nice talking to you Steve.

Steve: Hirohide, have we covered the ground for you?

I look forward to getting feedback.

Please give us feedback.

Alex: Yeah, we look forward to it.

And any other recommendations or requests that you guys have please send them to us and we’d be glad to make a podcast about them.

Steve: Okay.

Alex: Thank you.

Steve: Bye for now.

Alex: Bye-bye.

Want to study this episode as a lesson on LingQ? Give it a try!

Steve: Hi Alex.

Alex: Hi Steve.

Steve: How are you today?

Alex: I’m good.

Steve: Good. Well, you know what I would like to talk about today.

Alex: What’s that?

Steve: Well, you know if the year 2010 was the year of the iPad — to me, because I bought one — I think the year 2011 is going to be the year of the “electronic tablet”, because what I read is that there are just more and more manufacturers coming out with a similar type product.

Have you noticed that?

Alex: Oh, of course. They use the term “iPad Killer”, very often…

Steve: Okay.

Alex: …which is the concept of another product trying to take the market share from the iPad…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …so that the iPad then become obsolete.

But, yeah, there are several other manufacturers that are coming out with almost identical devices that perform more or less the same tasks.

Steve: And I gather some of them are all trying to take, you know, their own sort of individual approach to it; some larger, some smaller, some with better, I don’t know, media.

I’m not into all of it.

Alex: Faster and faster.

Steve: Faster, whatever.

And, of course, when you get people like Samsung and Toshiba and Nokia and all these people, you get all their technical wiz kids and experts and stuff developing new and better ways of producing a tablet, I mean that’s going to bring us a lot of competition and should be very interesting.

Hopefully it brings the cost of the tablets down, eventually.

Do you think it will?

Alex: I definitely think it will.

I think…well, I’ll put it this way.

I think the cost of them might stay the same…

Steve: Right.

Alex: …over time, but the features will dramatically improve.

And I think that’s kind of been, at least for Apple, more or less the historical trend, where a laptop computer will cost the same amount, but it will receive more and more updates and upgrades and get better and better.

So you’re paying the same amount, but it’s for a much better product.

Steve: But, you know, the interesting thing in all of this is, of course, the rise of places like India and China.

It may be that in Europe or North America or Japan or Korea $500-$600 for some kind of hand-held device is okay.

Lots of people can afford to spend that kind of money, but I read that the Indians were intent on coming out with some kind of a tablet for around $45, you know?

And so if the Chinese and the Indians and looking at the enormous market potentially in those countries, if they develop products for their market we could be looking at… They might sacrifice, you know, some functionality, but if they could come up with tablets that do the job under $100 that’s going to be amazing.

Alex: Oh yeah.

I mean there’s a lot of talk about the $100 laptop and I think it was One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) Project as well…

Steve: Okay.

Alex: …which was with the intent of providing laptop computers that, you know, work slower, but are a lot cheaper to manufacture in providing them to kids in Africa and different places in the world.

Steve: Right.

I mean what I see, too, because of my interest in education, I mean to me the electronic tablet is absolutely revolutionary, potentially revolutionary, because instead of kids having to buy expensive textbooks which they carry home in their heavy schoolbags or the teachers basically printing out these sheets that look so crummy, you know, that I see my grandchildren take home and they’re still just paper, you know?

It’s not that big an improvement over what happened 500 years ago; whereas, now the tablet can enable you to access content anywhere; multimedia content, connect with your friends, have a Skype conversation, video camera conversation.

I mean I think of it for language learning.

Basically, to my mind, if the place of learning has been the classroom, my personal view is the place of learning becomes wherever the learner is with the electronic tablet.

Alex: Right.

I think that goes off of the TED Talk by Sugata Mitra where he showed the computer that he had put in a slum in rural India and I guess the urban cities as well.

The kids would go there and pretty much teach themselves how to do it; learning without the aid of an instructor or a teacher or any sort of manual, but learning by doing.

I think it makes it even more accessible if there is in the near future some sort of product that’s manufactured by companies in India or in China for a fraction of the price.

Steve: Well, exactly.

And, of course, if I look at the cost of education which continues to increase every year five-10-15%, the costs just go up and the outcomes go down.

I was reading that in Canada we have fewer people graduating from high school than before.

Alex: Really?

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: Interesting.

Steve: It’s interesting. So, we are investing more and more money.

I mentioned in some discussion, I think, about the book The Rational Optimist where Matt Ridley points out that the cost of just about every product we consume – agricultural products, consumer products, industrial products – all these costs have gone way down, like a fraction of where they were and, of course, the speed of travel and we’re feeding twice as many people.

Everything has improved except education, which costs more and more with poorer and poorer outcomes or at least no significant improvement in outcomes.

Alex: Right.

Steve: Furthermore, the education, which is the largest item in the budget of many countries, is still targeted primarily at that under-20 age group between elementary, high school and university.

So they’re not even taking that public education budget and spending it on the whole population, but we know that we continue to learn throughout our lives.

Alex: Yup.

Steve: So I think that the electronic tablet has tremendous potential.

Alex: I think it really opens up the doors for a lot of people to pursue things that previously weren’t accessible, I mean for a working professional.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: Like I worked in construction and I saw a lot of guys who were working construction doing these really terrible blue-collar jobs and they were stuck in it.

You know they’d been there for 10-15-20 years.

Some of them are 40 or 50 years old even and they simply don’t have the option to go back to school.

It’s simply too expensive for them.

They may have families to support and stuff and so with this it allows them, as they’re perhaps continuing to do their job…they don’t have to take two years off to pursue something different.

Steve: Yeah, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume that someone in construction is unhappy with their job.

I know of people who are in construction who are quite happy.

Alex: Having been there, there’s a fraction of them that actually enjoy it.

Steve: Really?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: You don’t think carpenters enjoy being carpenters?

Alex: A lot of them don’t, actually.

Steve: Really.

Alex: I think it’s fun initially.

Steve: Right.

Alex: But it’s one of those jobs where if you’re not passionate about it, it becomes tedious and it feels like you’re not using your potential.

The reason a lot of people do construction is because it pays well and the reason it pays well is because it has a very high turnover rate.

People get hired and fired like on the spot.

People cycle through really quickly, but it’s very difficult work.

Steve: I mean I was involved in building for a few years building homes and I must say that the moral of the people I worked with was quite high.

Obviously a laborer has a less interesting job, but I thought the carpenters had great pride in their work and enjoyed doing what they were doing.

Alex: I think it’s a…

Steve: I think the opportunity for someone at age 40 to, you know, retrain to become, what, a stockbroker?

I mean, you know, he’s committed.

I don’t see it so much there, I think, certainly, insofar as trades and I think trades are very important.

You know not everybody can have a university degree nor need to have one, but education just in terms of self-fulfillment, in terms of, I don’t know, learning languages.

There are so many more things that you can do with the technology like the iPad; whereas, if the model is that you have to go to a classroom to learn that’s going to eliminate a lot of people right there.

Alex: Yeah and it also increases the cost.

I know that there are a lot of like adult programs at universities here, whether it’s night classes and stuff like that, but the costs are really quite significant.

You know for a course that’s maybe two months long once a week it’s $200-$300-$400 even, which if you’re on a budget is a significant amount of money.

Steve: Yeah and some are a lot more than that too, depending to what extent it’s subsidized by the government.

Alex: Right.

Steve: So it’s not just the cost that the student pays it’s the cost that the system pays.

I mean I was reading in Canada, certainly the amount of money we spend per university student is more than twice what we spend on an elementary or a high school student.

So there’s a lot of money spent on those people.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: And, as I’ve said many times, since the vast majority are in the humanities, it’s only like 12-15% who are in the hard subjects, you know, Engineering, Science and stuff, the rest of them are studying gender studies or whatever, History, Philosophy, those are subjects that could be just as easily studied on your own; just as easily studied on your own.

Now, you can argue that it’s more fun to go to university and that might be true, but the state is paying for it.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So the state is paying for you to have fun.

Well, if you’re really interested in the subject the state should maybe pay for you to have a tablet, an electronic tablet and go and learn.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Join a group of people who have similar interests, meet.

You know there are so many other ways of organizing that.

So I believe that the electronic tablet should be a very subversive element to our established education bureaucracy.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: However, I don’t think it will achieve that because the education bureaucracy is so strongly entrenched and they will somehow try to prevent that from happening because it’s in their interest to maintain the model of people coming to the classroom which is their bread and butter, so…

But it’s too bad, because we have seen in all other fields how modern development, modern inventions and so forth have led to these phenomenal increases in productivity, in reduction of the cost of products, the tremendous range of products.

But, yeah, I hope the tablet has that effect.

Alex: Yeah.

Well, I mean, to put of a bit of a different spin on it, I think technology does help the teachers as well.

I know some teachers that I’ve had where they’d take advantage of this technology to help provide more relevant information to the students and also provide it in a way that they receive it better.

I think it’s going to be difficult for something like the electronic tablet to really break down the walls of structured education, but at the same time there are teachers out there who are willing to take that risk and try these things out.

There are countless stories of one teacher in one school with one class of kids who tries something different and has amazing results, you know?

Steve: Oh yeah and I know there are teachers.

In fact, I have met teachers.

I met a Chinese teacher, teacher of Chinese, a lady in her 50s who was using the iPod Touch, had developed programs to help her kids learn characters and was making excellent use of that technology, but the fundamental problem is that the teacher says, okay, my responsibility is to teach the kids that are in my class or the students in my class in university.

So if I am so efficient that they only need one-tenth of my time then I’m basically, you know, getting rid of my job; whereas, if it were somehow structured that my potential market is everybody that can access the Internet not just the people who paid to come to this school.

Alex: Right.

Steve: I’m a good teacher.

I know I’m a good teacher.

I’m not talking about me, Steve.

I’m saying here’s this teacher that says I’m a good teacher and I know that with the use of this technology one-tenth of the input of my time can generate like 10 times the amount of learning if I use this technology.

Alex: Right.

Steve: But as long as my market base – customer base – is fixed, all I’m doing is reducing my work, so that’s not so good.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So there needs to be some kind of an image of the market that enables a teacher to say my market is the world.

Now, how can I use this platform to get my ideas and my better ways of teaching out to not only the people who sit in my classroom but to everybody?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Right now the marketplace for any education technology is the school system or the university.

It seems to be more those people who have a vested interest in the present structure.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: What has to happen is the teacher has to become an entrepreneur.

The teacher as a promoter, as an entrepreneur, promoting, learning, promoting an interest in his subject and promoting and showing people how to learn using the technology, but then the market has to be everybody regardless of their age, regardless of where they are.

Alex: Right.

Steve: There’s no reason why someone who teaches at UBC should be limited to the people who manage to get on a bus or drive or bicycle to UBC here in Vancouver.

There’s no reason why someone in Mongolia shouldn’t be taking advantage or, conversely, someone in Vancouver who likes the professor in Mongolia should be studying with him or her as their professor.

So that to me would be potentially ideal, but you have to break down so many walls for that to happen.

Alex: Yeah. It sounds good.

Steve: Anyway, we’ll see.

Alex: It would be cool.

Steve: But I think there will be an explosion of these tablets.

When they first came out people where say well, what are they good for, you know?

It’s neither a phone nor a computer.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: All of this skepticism.

In fact, it’s continuing to pick up steam.

Alex: It is, yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: I just read recently that Apple has actually ordered an increase on the production of iPads, the new iPad 2, which has not yet been announced, but a lot of people are anticipating that.

It will be interesting to see where it goes in the next few months and in the next few years.

Steve: It’s really fascinating.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Well, I guess that was our main subject.

We had a whole bunch of other things we could talk about, but we decided to focus in on that, so 2011, the year of the tablet.

I wonder how many of our listeners have an electronic tablet.

Alex: It would be interesting to hear.

Steve: Yeah, let us know.

Or, if you want us to talk about something else please let us know.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Okay.

By the way, I had a Skype message from someone in Brazil who said something to the effect of, you know, when are we going to have another podcast and Alex rocks or something like that. He’s a fan.

Alex: Oh, thank you.

Steve: He’s a fan. There you go.

Alex: Good to hear.

Steve: Okay.

Alex: Cool.

Steve: Thank you for listening.

Alex: Thanks for listening everyone, take care.

Steve: Bye.

This and all episodes of this podcast are available to study as a lesson on LingQ. Try it here.

Steve: Hi Alex.

Alex: Hi Steve.

Steve: Listen; you know what we’re going to talk about today?

Alex: What are we going to talk about?

Steve: We’re going to talk about the season.

Alex: Ah.

Steve: What season is it?

Alex: It’s Christmas.

Steve: It’s Christmas.

First of all, Christmas is, I guess, more of a family event versus New Year is more of a party, go out with your friends event, right?

Alex: I find that is the case.

It depends on the country really.

In Korea it’s not at all that case; whereas, Christmas is not really a big holiday, it’s mostly between couples, but in North America, for the most part, Christmas is a very family-oriented holiday.

Steve: I should comment that Alex is our resident Korean, right? So, yeah…

Alex: Yeah. Not Korean by race…

Steve: No.

Alex: …but simply by affiliation, we’ll call it.

Steve: Yeah, so family.

So have you already bought all your presents for your family members?

Alex: I have purchased them all.

I have one left to pick up, but the rest are either hiding somewhere in the house or somewhere at the store.

Steve: Okay.

Are you one of these people who start buying Christmas presents six months ahead of time, who’s very well organized and prepared?

Alex: To a degree. Fifty percent yes, 50% no.

Some of the gifts I bought late October early November, but that was mostly because I knew what I wanted to get for that specific person.

I had to wait for that item to appear on the shelves, but the other things sometimes it’s last minute.

Sometimes it’s ahead of time, it really depends.

Steve: I must admit that I start thinking about Christmas some time in December; the latter half of December.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Unless I see something earlier in the year that, you know, I think oh that would be good for that person and then I might buy it, but normally I don’t even focus on Christmas until we’re pretty close.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: So have you bought all your presents then?

Steve: I’ve bought some and my wife has bought some.

You know we have family in London as well, Eric and his family.

So there we gave them some things and also gave some money to Eric to go out and buy gifts for the kids, because it costs a fortune to ship gifts.

Alex: It does.

Steve: It’s ridiculous.

Alex: It’s really expensive, yeah.

Steve: I mean you ship something it’s going to cost more than actually the gift, so we’re not doing that.

Alex: Yeah, I’ve found that to be the case.

Actually at LingQ we just sold a microphone maybe two months ago via PayPal to a guy in Australia and it was only about a pound, a little over a pound and it was $35 to send the microphone.

Steve: Did you send it?

Alex: We did, but he paid for it.

Steve: Oh.

Alex: It was on PayPal.

Steve: I mean can’t he buy a microphone in Australia? That’s ridiculous.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: That’s ridiculous.

Alex: Well, we were offering a special deal.

Steve: Oh.

Now, the other thing of course around this time of year… Oh, one other thing that’s interesting is we, of course, offered a special Christmas offer at LingQ, right?

Alex: Yes.

Steve: So one person on the forum commented, you know.

And this person I think is quite Christian and commented on how we, you know… I’m not, you know, Christian and I’m not particularly a believer in religion either.

I hope we don’t lose all our…

Alex: Well, we’re all free to express what we believe.

Steve: We’re all free to believe what we believe.

Alex: Exactly.

Steve: And so she felt it was surprising that we would offer a Christmas offer if we’re not, you know, big believers in sort of Christianity or whatever.

I think Christmas has become like Chinese New Year.

You don’t have to be Chinese to celebrate Chinese New Year and go eat whatever they eat, you know?

Alex: Right.

Steve: There are a number of these festivals that have become a bit international and have lost their original religious or cultural meaning, in my view.

Alex: Right.

Steve: And so even in Japan Christmas is celebrated.

You hear Christmas music and people buy presents.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: There are some Christians.

Alex: Right.

Steve: There are some Christians in Japan, but not as many as Korea, for example.

Alex: Very few in Japan, actually.

Steve: Very few, yeah. In Korea it’s like 40% of the population.

Alex: Thirty-40, yeah.

Steve: Thirty, yeah.

Alex: It’s quite a bit.

It’s a large chunk of the people.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: But, yeah.

I mean we discussed this too and it was one of those things where we’re a North American-based company and, you know, Christmas is the holiday that most people here celebrate so we chose Christmas.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: Christmas is really what this time of year is all based around in North America and so operating out of that, you know, it’s no intention to offend people or exclude people or anything like that.

It’s not promoting any religious background either.

Steve: Well, that’s right.

The other thing about Christmas is, especially in the northern hemisphere, I mean we need Christmas because it starts to get dark and cold and there’s snow.

So if we can turn all this snow and everything into something pleasant I mean it helps get us through the darkest time of year.

And, of course, it’s often explained that a lot of the traditions around Christmas actually come from these pagan traditions that are related to the fact that this is the darkest time of year.

And so there were all kinds of, you know, whatever they were, primitive people in the forest would light fires to encourage the sun to come back because the sun was…

Alex: How interesting.

Steve: Yeah, yeah.

And, of course, the early Christian people promoting the Christian religion in Europe were very keen to tie, you know, the pagan traditions to Christianity in order to encourage people to convert.

So there’s quite a mixture of Roman traditions.

In fact, we don’t want to get into this, but there are a lot of traditions in Middle Eastern religion that are common to a lot of them and there were religions or sects that talked about a virgin giving birth to a child and stuff like that before Christianity.

So, I mean, as with all cultural things, nobody invents them out of a vacuum.

Alex: Right.

Steve: All of these things come as sort of an amalgam of all kinds of different influences and so forth and so on.

So we’re left with a somewhat commercial Christmas, which does make a lot of people, especially kids, very happy around this time of year.

Alex: Yeah. I think that’s the goal.

You know our goal is not to, like we said, offend or exclude anyone.

Steve: Right.

Alex: It’s to simply bring a joyous time of year.

Steve: Right.

Alex: It’s the time where people are really looking for stuff for their loved ones.

It’s more than anything an excuse to really buy people something to show your appreciation and your affection for them.

Steve: Well, it’s an excuse for a family event and we all remember Christmases when we were kids around the dinner table and the tree and all these kinds of things.

I think we need these kinds of things.

It brings people together.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: It brings people together.

I was in Italy and then we were briefly in Switzerland and then in Munich and of course the further north you go the more Christmassy these things are.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Although, I must say, we were in Salerno near Naples and they had their Christmas lights out.

I mean the streets were just full of people.

Alex: Really?

Steve: Full of people.

But the decorations in St.

Gallen in Switzerland and in Munich were spectacular, so, yeah, all around the world.

Although, I think the Russians have a different day or something for theirs.

Alex: Oh, do they?

Steve: I think so. I’m not sure.

I’m not sure how it all works.

It’s similar, but…

Alex: Interesting.

Steve: Yeah. So, then, what are you going to do during the holidays?

Alex: Well, what I normally do is spend time with my family, kind of just get together.

We have our Christmas traditions, just like everyone, so we’ll do that and I think kind of just relax.

You know it’s really a time of year when you get to wind down and prepare yourself for the New Year.

You can set, of course, New Year’s resolutions and stuff like that, which some people adhere to and most don’t.

Steve: Right.

Alex: But I think more than anything it’s a good time to kind of reflect upon the year, not have so many responsibilities that you need to take care of, but just take time away, step back a bit and reevaluate and then, based on that, you know, leap forward into another productive year.

Steve: And, of course, eat a lot.

Alex: Of course.

Steve: That’s the other danger during this season.

Alex: It is.

Steve: Of course the mothers and the wives and so forth, mainly, or the husbands, whatever, we don’t want to be sexist about this, they outdo themselves in preparing food and cooking and baking cakes and cookies and so you end up putting on a few pounds over the period.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Are you going away anywhere?

Alex: No, I’m actually going to be here in Vancouver, but the thing is that my family lives in Vancouver as well.

So there’s really no reason to travel outside unless we’re specifically going to another location for traveling or something like that.

So I’ll probably be here.

I don’t think I’ll go to the mountains yet.

I plan on going maybe in January or February.

But what we did do, turkey is a big thing here of course.

Steve: Right.

Alex: There’s this knowledge of Thanksgiving being the turkey holiday, but in fact Christmas is as well.

Now there are Christmas hams.

Steve: Right.

Alex: But we don’t normally eat ham, we normally eat turkey as well.

A friend of my moms actually runs a farm a bit east of here in a place called Aldergrove and she has been raising turkeys, along with all sorts of other animals, horses and pigs and chickens and she offered to sell us one of the turkeys.

It was actually really cheap.

It was about $30 for a 25 pound turkey, which normally you’d pay $70-$80 for something that size.

Steve: Really?

Alex: You know this is naturally raised and all that kind of stuff, which is especially nice, but it also means that we’re going to have a lot of leftover turkey.

So I think the period between Christmas and New Year’s we’ll probably be eating turkey sandwiches and turkey soup and all sorts of other concoctions.

Steve: You know it is surprising how cheap turkeys are in the United States.

Have you ever looked at the price of turkey in the U.S.

Alex: I lived in the United States for six years.

Steve: Yeah. I mean turkeys there are like a third.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: It’s just ridiculous.

Alex: I know. It is.

Steve: Five dollars, you know?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: It’s amazing.

Alex: It is.

Steve: It’s amazing. I don’t know what they do with their turkeys over there.

Alex: They cram them into a small pen and feed them.

Steve: Well, that’s right. They’re not range fed, you know?

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Well, I know.

When people complain about, you know, fish farming or something they should go and look at a chicken farm and see how the poor chickens are treated.

Alex: I know, yeah.

Steve: Anyway, we’ll get off that subject.

Alex: Right.

Steve: Yeah. Of course I have one son who lives in London, but Mark, of course, lives here.

He has three kids and so he and his wife and kids and my wife and I we often go skiing up to Big White, which is about five hours by car from here.

We have to drive over the mountains.

We hope we don’t run into a blizzard as we go through the Coquihalla Pass there.

And that’s very nice because it’s not as glitzy as Whistler and basically all of the accommodation is on the hill.

Alex: Oh, okay.

Steve: So it’s what we call ‘ski in, ski out’.

So we get up in the morning, have a little breakfast, put our skis on at the door and we’re on the hill.

Alex: Really?

Steve: All the accommodation is spread out all over the hill and one of the nice things is, you know, for lunch you don’t have to go to the restaurant where it’s all steamy and lined up to, you know, get food and lined up to go to the bathroom.

You just go back to the house.

It’s just on your run.

You just ski in there.

Even if you need to go to the bathroom while you’re skiing, you just go in there, go to the bathroom, put your skis back on and away you go.

Alex: Really? Wow.

Steve: You take your boots off too, of course.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: So it’s really nice.

They don’t have the fancy restaurants that Whistler has, but as a family ski area.

They’ve got downhill skiing and they have a great big open-air rink.

Alex: Oh, really?

Steve: Yeah and all kinds of people come and like there’s two or three hockey games going in different directions.

Three generations, you know, Mark, me and, of course, my grandson; tobogganing and there’s all kinds of stuff.

Alex: That’s cool.

Steve: So it’s really nice.

It’s a real winter, you know, family winter resort.

Alex: Cool.

Steve: Yeah.

Alex: I’ve never been to Whistler.

Whistler, for those of you who may not know, is one of the mountains, probably the most popular mountain, in maybe North America.

Steve: Well, I wouldn’t necessarily say most popular because I think there are areas that are closer to large centers, but it has the distinction of having the longest vertical drop.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: The difference from the top of the mountain to the bottom to the village is greater than any other mountain in North America.

So it’s very steep and they have very long runs and steeper than Europe, too, because by enlarge in Europe the runs are not as long as they are in North America.

Alex: Oh, really.

Steve: Yeah. It’s quite a good ski area.

Alex: Okay. And Whistler was one of the mountains that they used for the Winter Olympics as well.

Steve: Yeah, that’s right.

Alex: But, as Steve says, Winter Olympics results in a lot of tourists and a lot of attention drawn to Whistler.

Steve: Right.

Alex: So Whistler is one of those places where everything is five times as much as it would be normally.

Steve: Lots, yeah.

Alex: It’s a tourist attraction.

Steve: It’s a tourist attraction, lots of good restaurants and stuff like that, five star hotels.

It’s a jet set destination ski resort, which is fine.

Alex: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah, so that’s it.

So we’re going to take it easy, eat turkey, do some skiing, buy some presents, maybe even receive the odd present.

Alex: Aha.

Steve: That will be our Christmas.

Alex: Sounds good.

Steve: So I guess we should, regardless of where people are, wish them a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Alex: Yes, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. Thanks for listening.

Steve: Absolutely. Thank you for listening.

Alex: Bye-bye.

Steve: Bye.

Study the transcript of this episode as a lesson on LingQ, saving the words and phrases you don’t know to your database. Here it is!

Mark: Hello again. Welcome back to EnglishLingQ. I’m joined today by Alex.

Alex: Hi everyone.

Mark: I’m Mark, by the way, in case you don’t know that.

You’ll probably hear some construction sounds as we’re doing our podcast here today, but because they are working on our building we thought maybe we’d talk a little bit about construction.

Alex: Interesting topic of choice.

The main reason is that I actually worked in construction.

I spent a year doing construction before I started university and it was a pretty interesting experience.

Mark: We can certainly get to some of your stories, I’m sure.

I guess probably the first thing we can do is explain what they’re doing here at our building, because chances are you’ll hear a lot of construction noises in our podcast for the foreseeable future.

Alex: There’s a hammer.

Mark: Yeah, there you go.

A little banging, a little authenticity…

Alex: There we go.

Mark: …to the podcast.

I think they’re supposed to be working on the building until March-April or the spring at least.

Alex: Yeah, another probably four-five-six months, something like that.

Mark: So it’s something to look forward to for us here for sure, because it’s very annoying all the banging and guys walking by the windows talking loudly and swearing at each other and stuff.

But what happened on our building is we have these outdoor planters and they have been leaking for quite a few years.

They’ve tried to fix them, seal them, but the water continues to find a way through and so the structure even itself, at least outside in the balcony area and where these planters are, is rusting and in need of repair.

So they’re ripping out all the planter boxes, replacing the parts of the structure that need replacing and then putting another railing up and I guess it’s going to take a while.

So the whole building is shrouded in scaffolding…

Alex: …tarps and everything.

Mark: …tarps and so on.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: And we have guys wandering around banging and wrecking stuff and jack hammering.

Alex: That’s the best.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: That’s the best.

Mark: The jack hammering is particularly exciting.

There’s also the sawing and banging, all of which is not that conducive to working.

Alex: It’s quite distracting, to say the least.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: I mean it’s particularly important that they do the repairs though, Vancouver being a climate in which rain is very, very common.

In fact, we don’t get much snow, but we did this year.

Mark: Last week was cold.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: Last week was cold.

Although I understand that in Europe it was cold.

I was in Europe last week, too, it was freezing.

Alex: Right.

Mark: But this week it sounds like it’s even colder.

Alex: Oh really.

Mark: There’s a bunch of airports closed.

Even in England there’s snow and airports closing.

Yeah, sounds like the coldest start to December in a long time apparently, so.

Alex: Is it? Interesting.

Mark: Here right now, today, it’s pretty nice.

Alex: It’s about three degrees Celsius, something like that.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: It looks really nice.

It’s a little nippy, but it’s not raining.

Mark: Wow, is it like three degrees?

Alex: Yeah, it is.

Mark: Oh.

Alex: Surprisingly.

Mark: But it’s kind of half sunny.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: It doesn’t feel that cold out.

Alex: Right.

Mark: It’s not raining. Yesterday it was just horrible.

Alex: It was.

Mark: It was like two degrees and raining hard all day.

Alex: Oh the joys of weather.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: Right.

Mark: But you were saying you did work in construction.

What kind of construction was it?

Alex: I did commercial construction, so particularly building high-rises or high-rise apartments.

Now, the building in particular that I worked on ended up being 41 stories.

Mark: Right.

Alex: And when I started it was on the third story.

And when I started I had absolutely no idea what to expect.

Mark: Right.

Alex: No knowledge of construction or anything related to it.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Simply found the job on something called “craigslist”.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: And it was just, you know, something to make some money for a year and then to help pay for university.

But it was pretty cool because I ended up working in construction for 12 ½ months, which means that I experienced every different season that we have here.

Vancouver, as some of you may know, is a very moderate climate, which means that it doesn’t get that cold in winter and it doesn’t get that hot in summer.

But, interestingly enough, when you’re working outdoors for anywhere from eight to 10 hours a day it really takes its toll on you.

Like the hot is amplified and the cold is as well.

I remember it was two years ago during the winter that it was pretty cold and I remember every day my nose was just dripping, like literally the whole day; constantly having to wipe my nose and wearing these huge jackets and two pairs of pants, soaked and all that stuff.

Mark: Well, I know like on a day like yesterday as I’m traveling around and you see guys working outside I think ah, this is not such a good day to be having an outside job.

Alex: Yup.

Mark: In the summertime when I’m sitting inside my office and it’s a beautiful day outside then I think the guys that are outside have a good deal.

Alex: You would think.

Mark: You would think.

I mean yeah, sure, it can get pretty hot, but still you’re outside.

How bad can it be?

Have something to drink.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: Suck it up.

Alex: It’s really tough.

It’s easier in residential construction, which is just building houses and stuff.

Mark: Right.

Alex: The guys are much more comfortable.

Like they can, you know, go in and out of the house.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Easy access to amenities, but when you’re 30 stories up…

Mark: Right.

Alex: There’s literally a guy that has to carry a pitcher of water from the highest that the man hoist will go.

The man hoist is like an outside elevator.

Mark: Right.

Alex: So a guy will have to go down to the ground, get the water…

Mark: Right.

Alex: …then go back up the man hoist and then carry it up, you know, four or five flights of stairs.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: And then, you know, immediately the 20 guys up there swarm to it, drink it all and it’s empty and you have to go down again.

Mark: Yeah, I can see where being in a high-rise would be quite a bit different.

What were you doing?

What was your job specifically?

Were you the water guy?

Alex: I was what you call a laborer.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: Which, when I explain it to people I normally say I was kind of the lackey.

Mark: Right.

Alex: So, I did all the…

Mark: That’s why I asked if you were the water guy.

Alex: Yeah. So I would do things like getting water, but also a lot of moving materials.

Mark: Right.

Alex: And also a lot of cleaning and really, more than anything, making sure that the carpenters and the foremen can do their jobs well.

So, providing them with all the materials they need to ensure that they’re able to do that.

But, actually, towards the end of it I ended up doing a lot of the pouring of the concrete.

Mark: Oh yeah.

Alex: Yeah.

So we would have to climb up on these forms on the walls and, you know, there’s the big concrete pump.

That’s the boom that’s swinging around.

Mark: Right.

Alex: You’ve got to pour that into the wall, really dirty.

Especially in the winter it’s super cold, because when you’re up like 30 or 40 stories it’s anywhere from five to 10 degrees colder than it is at ground level and you’re not protected from the wind.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Sometimes it would be snowing up at the top and not snowing at the bottom.

Mark: Oh yeah?

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: Or raining, rather.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But, yeah.

So towards the end of it I started to do a lot of the concrete pouring; less of the kind of menial sweeping-type jobs.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But, I mean someone has to do it, you know?

Mark: Was that better or worse?

Alex: I liked it more towards the end.

Construction is one of those jobs where the higher up you go the less you’re expected to do physically.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Right?

The new recruits they just pound it into them.

You know like take this, take that.

Move this, move that.

You know, instructions here and there.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: But as you start to move up the ladder there’s more slack.

You’re kind of more allowed to think.

Mark: Theoretically you’re more skilled and can do more things?

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: Right.

Alex: So I enjoyed that more because it felt like it was kind of at least using more of my potential rather than just being this, you know…like you don’t have to think, that’s the thing.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Like when you’re doing a basic job like that you don’t have to think at all.

You just do stuff.

It kind of feels like your brain starts to atrophy, you know?

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: You’re not using it. It’s just you’re physically exhausted.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Mentally not doing anything.

Mark: Yeah. No, I can see that.

I’ve only ever been involved with residential construction.

But, there again, I wasn’t actually doing the work.

I was watching people do the work or getting people to do the work.

I’m sure it would be quite a bit different than a high-rise like that.

Alex: But I think at the same time the high-rise construction is probably a lot more simple because you end up doing the same thing over and over.

Whereas, in residential it requires a lot more skills and abilities because every house is different.

Mark: Right.

Alex: Right.

Mark: Yeah, that’s true.

I mean I’m always very impressed with how the different trades people are able to do their jobs, you know, from the guys building the frame in residential construction.

The most impressive thing is how quickly the house seems to go up.

Alex: Right.

Mark: The frame of the house goes up in no time and then the roof on it and the windows and, wow, then it really seems to slow to a crawl after that.

Alex: It does, as soon as the heavy stuff is done.

Mark: The plumbers and the electricians.

Yeah, the heavy stuff is done, but all the detail that goes into a house, the tiling and the plumbing and the electrician.

Alex: Everything that makes it a house.

Mark: The flooring, everything, the painting.

Whatever else goes on seems to certainly go on for…

Alex: A long time.

Mark: …a lot longer than you’d think.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: You think, wow, it’s almost done.

Alex: Right.

Mark: And it’s not.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: Anyway, I think that’s probably good there.

We touched on the subject of construction for any of you that might be interested.

We’re taking advantage of the current situation here.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: And we will talk about something else next time.

Alex: Yeah, I look forward to that.

Mark: Okay, bye-bye.

Alex: Thanks for listening everyone.

Want to study this episode as a lesson on LingQ? Give it a try!

Mark: Speaking of which, I know you also wanted to talk about the iPhone.

Alex: Yeah, iPhone 4.

Mark: That’s right.

Alex: So, as you all know, many of you may know, the iPhone 4 came out in…I believe it was released in the end of June.

It was announced early June, but it was released in the end of June and we got it in Canada in the second batch, I think, not the first one.

But Mark has an iPhone 4, so he’s been enjoying that.

Mark: I do. I do. In fact, I got my iPhone 4 on the day it came out.

Alex: Did you really.

Mark: I did. I did.

Alex: Aha.

Mark: Not that I’m one of these super…

Alex: …Apple fan boys.

Mark: …Apple fan boys that camps out over night to get their Apple stuff.

I needed a new phone.

I had an old Blackberry that my contract was over on and I knew the new iPhone was coming out.

I could have gotten an iPhone 3 in June and I said well that new one is coming out in July, I’ll just wait.

Alex: Right.

Mark: So then in July I thought, oh well, in July sometime I’ll hear the announcement, I’ll go down there and get one.

But then my wife said well you’re not going to get one.

I said what do you mean?

I’ll just go down and get one.

No, no, because they’re limited, right?

At least they were initially.

Alex: Well they still are, actually.

Mark: Are they still?

You still can’t…?

Alex: Yeah.

I have friends who I talked to last week who said that they’ve gone to the Apple Store…or, actually, in Canada, in Vancouver at least, they’re for sale at several different distributors, different mobile companies.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But there are still a lot of shortages.

Mark: Is that right?

Alex: Yeah. There’s still people who can’t their hands on one.

Mark: I was lucky. I don’t even appreciate how lucky I was.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: But my wife said no, no, you’ve got to go down there and talk to them now and see if there’s anything, you know, you can reserve one or something.

So that was like two days before it came out.

Alex: Oh, really.

Mark: So I went down there and they said yeah, okay.

Fine, leave us a deposit.

We’re getting 15 in and yours is the 13th deposit received.

Alex: Oh, really. Wow.

Mark: I said okay. Then I showed up the day they came out and got my phone.

Alex: There it was.

Mark: There were people that camped out in the mall lined up at these different providers.

I’m like oh.

Wow, I guess I did well.

They said yeah.

No, if you didn’t reserve it then you’re out of luck.

As you say, you’re still waiting.

Alex: I’m actually really surprised that there’s still…of course, I would like to get my hands on one sooner or later.

Mark: Right.

Alex: I currently have the first generation iPod Touch, which came out in 2007.

I bought it 32 days before the next generation was released.

Mark: Nice.

Alex: And the store I bought it from had a 28-day return policy.

Mark: Nice.

Alex: So I was four days past the return policy.

But it’s okay, you know, whatever.

There weren’t major significant updates.

Mark: Right.

Alex: There were a couple of things that were added on, but I’m still using my device happily.

You know, it’s served me well.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: I think one of the things I like the most about it is the fact that you can have so many different applications that serve so many different purposes.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: You know I’ve really enjoyed it as a companion during my commute to school and also now to work.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But, at the same time I can use it at home for a multitude of different applications.

There’s so much functionality that’s just built in to the whole system that I can one second be listening to a song and then decide, hey, I want to study my Chinese flashcards and go on to do that and the next minute be thinking of, oh, I wonder, you know, what is the GDP of India.

Mark: Right.

Alex: You know?

Mark: Which happens.

Alex: Yeah and then go in and find that out.

You know it’s actually a really neat resource for someone like me who’s kind of an information buff, I guess.

Mark: Yeah.

No, it is amazing what it can do and that’s the biggest thing, you know, that separates it from some of the other phones, I think, like the Blackberries and the Androids and so forth, which presumably have similar technology, similar cameras and processors and, I don’t know what, the touch screens and that.

But the number of apps that are available on the iPhone and I know we have our own iPhone app at LingQ.

Alex: Two.

Mark: And we have no Android app.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: I don’t know what other…

Alex: There’s Windows Mobile.

Mark: …formats there are.

Mark: But we do apologize to all the people who would like us to make an Android app.

I’m sure we will some day, because Android is growing very quickly, but there’s no question that iPhone or iPod, I mean that’s the biggest market and it’s been there the longest and by far the biggest number of apps and good apps, quality-tested apps.

I don’t think you can compare it with Android yet, but don’t send us any hate mail.

We will get to an Android app some day.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely.

One other thing I’m curious of though is have you used FaceTime or the front-facing camera at all on the iPhone 4?

Mark: The front-facing camera I’ve used to take the odd picture of myself and goof around with my kids.

FaceTime is a ridiculous thing.

You can only use it with someone else who has an iPhone 4 and it only works if you’re both on a Wi-Fi connection.

Alex: Yup.

Mark: Well, what’s the point?

Alex: It’s very limited, unfortunately.

Mark: Very limited.

It doesn’t work… If it worked on a regular cellular connection, maybe I could see it, because eventually more people will have iPhone 4s.

Alex: Right.

Mark: But, I mean I had the phone for two or three months before I even tried to use it.

Hey, you’ve got an iPhone 4, great.

We’ve got to try this thing.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: It wouldn’t work.

You must be on Wi-Fi.

Well now we had to go find Wi-Fi.

Alex: Right.

Mark: So the next time I was in a place with Wi-Fi and somebody with an iPhone 4 it was, again, you know a month later.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: It’s kind of pointless, but it’s neat because it indicates where the technology is heading.

Presumably, everything will get better and the device has a front-facing camera, so.

Alex: Right.

One thing that’s interesting that I want to bring up with that is when I first went to Korea, which was the winter of 2007, so this is almost three years ago now, every phone, like every new phone had a front-facing camera and they could all do video chat.

Now, the difference is that Korea is very small.

Mark: Right.

Alex: So in Korea you have to pay to use video chatting on your phone.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But there’s not really anything…like there’s no long distance in Korea.

Mark: Right.

Alex: In a place like Canada, where people are spread out so far, it’s a lot more expensive to build the cell phone towers and the infrastructure to support that.

Mark: Right.

Alex: But it’s interesting to see the reactions of people here when they see a front-facing camera and the ability to video chat on their phone.

Mark: Right.

Alex: It’s like wow, you know, new wave of technology.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Alex: But it’s not.

Mark: It’s not.

Alex: Which is pretty interesting.

Mark: No, I remember seeing the same when I was in Japan.

That was quite a while ago now, seven-eight years ago, but the stuff that they’re doing is so much more advanced than stuff that seems so new here.

Ah, I guess that’s just the nature of it.

Alex: But one thing, on a side note, is that I tend to follow Mac Rumors, which is actually a Website, MacRumors.com.

There’s a lot of, you know, kind of rumors and hearsay and different stuff about things that are supposed to come out or might be released and stuff and that kind of gets me excited.

Mark: Yeah.

Alex: But I did hear that Apple is planning on allowing FaceTime to be used over 3G, which means that you’ll be able to do it on your regular cell phone network.

Mark: Right.

Alex: And I think as people continue to get iPhone 4s and the new iPod Touch as well and all these different devices that it really will be a much more feasible function.

Mark: For sure. Oh yeah, it will come.

Alex: Yeah.

Mark: It’s coming.

I mean it will come, yeah.

It’s just everything has got to start somewhere.

Alex: It’s just a matter of time.

Mark: Yeah, that’s right.

Not everyone can be on the cutting edge like myself.

Alex: Yeah, exactly.

Mark: You know day one with their iPhone 4.

Only me and, you know…

Alex: You and two others, right?

Mark: I was going to say ten million of my closest friends around the world get special phones straight from Steve Jobs.

He sent them to us.

Anyway, we should probably end it there.

It’s about a good length of time for people to get the dishes finished and go for a run.

Alex: There you go.

Mark: So we’ll catch up with you again next time.

Alex: Cool. Thanks for listening everyone. Take care.

Study this episode and any others from the LingQ English Podcast on LingQ! Check it out.

Elle: Hi everyone.

And welcome to the English LingQ podcast with me Elle.

Don’t forget if you are learning English, you can study this video as a lesson on LingQ.

I will put the link to that lesson in the description.

And also if you’re listening on any other podcast platform, don’t forget to give this episode a like.

Yeah.

So this week, I’m joined again by LingQ team member, Shelby.

How are you Shelby?

Shelby: Hi Elle. I’m doing great. Thanks. How are you?

Elle: Excellent. I’m good. Thank you. I’m good.

And um doing well is, or wellness is the topic of this week’s episode.

I thought it would be interesting if we chatted about something that we’re both really interested in at the moment, the whole self-care, setting goals for wellness for 2021.

Because of course, 2021 is difficult and 2020 was difficult.

So it’s, uh, it’s good to have maybe a plan of action to keep yourself sane and, and well.

And, um, and I know that we talked before about a really inspiring kind of plan of action you have for 2021.

Shelby: Oh, well, thank you.

I’m, I’m glad to hear that.

I was also really inspired to hear, um, that you decided to, um, quit drinking.

And you told me that in, I think in December we chatted about that and, um, I’ve been hearing other people doing the same.

And, um, admittedly, I started making more of a habit out of drinking, um, in the evenings, um, during quarantine last year.

And so it’s, it’s been on my mind.

So that’s one of the habits I decided to implement for 2021 to, uh, not drink at all.

Elle: Wow. Okay. How’s it going?

Shelby: So far so good.

I, um…

Elle: NIce.

Shelby: I haven’t really wanted to drink.

Um, so the, the habits that I’m focusing on this year are, um, meditate for 10 to 30 minutes every day.

Um, do yoga every day, which usually takes me about 30 minutes.

Um, and go on a decent length walk, um, at least 5,000 steps.

So try to aim for 10,000, but, um, it’s not realistic all the time.

Cause it, you know, it takes a lot of time.

Um, was that all of them?

And then, um, to work out three times a week.

So, um, the drinking part, I think is one of the easiest, it’s just as soon as you know, you’re not doing it.

It’s just not an option.

You don’t really have to think about it.

Um, I don’t know.

What about you?

Do you have a similar experience?

Elle: Uh, you know, I stopped drinking in November last year and at first I was great.

I didn’t, I surprised myself by not wanting to drink at all for months.

Even Christmas wasn’t as difficult as I thought it would be.

But over the last, maybe two weeks or so, for some reason.

I dunno,

maybe it’s, you know, when things get a little stressful work has been a bit stressful and I just, you know, intense, I have wanted red wine for sure.

Yes, I have.

Yeah, my husband is drinking still.

He doesn’t drink a lot, but he does have a glass of red every now and then.

And when I see that, just over the last couple of weeks, I’ve felt

that I want one.

I haven’t had one, but I think, I don’t know.

I’ve never, I’ve never given up alcohol for a long period of time, except for when I was pregnant and breastfeeding, but that was different.

Like I had that motivation.

It was like, almost my mind flipped a switch.

It’s like, no, you can’t.

So there’s no such thing as, um, you know, desire for it.

Cause it’s just, you just know you can’t, but obviously now I can, if I want to, I don’t, I choose not to.

So it’s my… I’m at war with myself, um, kind of thing, which is always hard.

Shelby: Yeah.

I mean, you’re just relying on your, your willpower at this point and I’ve you know read about willpower and it’s… it works like a meter, you know?

So like if you use willpower for one thing, um, you know, you’re, then later that day you have to use it for something else you’re going to, uh, your, your meter of willpower is, is decreasing.

So it’s a good idea to not try to like, just rely on willpower for like multiple different things all at the same time.

Like if you were also trying to, I don’t know, like, um, stop, uh, consuming sugar or, um, gluten or one of those other foods that are pervasive and really addictive too.

Um, I’ve read that it’s like not really even advisable to try to do that all at once, just because you’re relying on something that is, um, it’s um, I guess I would say that it’s, um, Okay.

I want to like, run, run this back a little bit to do what I said.

Um, you’re, you’re relying on willpower, which, um, it comes from the glucose in your brain.

So like, especially when it comes to food stuff, um, like you, you need to, to eat and eat well to like have the glucose that you need to have the willpower to fight off whatever it is that you want to avoid.

So, anyway, all of it is just to say that.

Um, especially when you’re around it.

Um, that’s when it gets, I think particularly challenging.

Elle: Yeah, for sure.

Have you found that you’ve, ,you’re using you’re eating sugar more or salty snacks more instead of the alcohol?

Or are you you’re okay, so far?

Shelby: Um, so far I’m okay.

Um, I I’m, I eat sugar.

Um, I eat.

Um, I love salt and salty snacks, so I, you know, have certain things around the house that I can have like, um, popcorn, um, sometimes like some like kettle chips.

And, but I, I kind of like, I’m trying to develop a habit of eating, like certain foods.

Like, I’m just going to eat foods consistently.

Like I know what I’m going to eat throughout the day.

So then I don’t really have to have that like negotiation with myself.

Um, that does get boring though.

So you have to like, in my experience, you have to, um, sort of like switch things up on a routine cadence, but for example, um, a big item that I have every day is a smoothie and it’s really big.

Um, I have it right here in this beautiful, um, America cup that I got for $1 at a thrift store.

Um, but yeah, it has, uh, frozen, mixed berries, frozen spinach, a full banana, um, a scoop of, um, vegan protein powder and like coconut oil, hemp seeds, chia seeds.

Um, and sometimes I’ll put avocado in there too.

So it’s like very filling it’s tasty.

It gives me a lot of nutrients that I need in the day.

And so it lasts for a good… it kind of depends on the day, but it might keep me full for like four to five hours.

And so that’s a good chunk out of my day where I don’t have to feel like, oh, I’m hungry and I’m busy at work too.

You know, like, what am I going to eat?

I just, I want to have certain things on hand.

Um, so I don’t have to think about it too much.

Elle: Right. And that packs a really like fibrous punch too, all those vegetables and fruits, right?

That’s great.

Shelby: Yeah. And I recommend it.

Um, uh, what about you?

I mean, you’ve been doing the, um, you’ve been sober longer than I have.

So are you finding that you’re like kind of compensating with certain snacks or other vices?

Elle: Yes. Yes.

At first I wasn’t and I knew it was too good to be true.

And within the first two months, I was like, this, this is easy.

I’m doing really well.

You know, I lost, I lost some weight.

I was feeling definitely more energy, able to sleep better.

Um, and yeah, it’s just been over the last two to two to three weeks say I’ve definitely been consuming more sugar.

I just really, really crave chocolate, candy, anything sweet, really.

And cream like creamy desserts.

So like, uh, you know, even like that squirty cream that you can get to go on the top of your drinks?

Yeah.

I’ll just put that on some fruit.

So that’s good, I guess, but I’m definitely eating more sugar, which is, is, bad too, because, um, my den…I haven’t been to the dentist in a while.

My dentist isn’t accepting patients for cleanings, just like emergencies because of COVID.

And so I haven’t been for a cleaning for a while, and I know she’s going to be disappointed when she gets in my mouth.

Shelby: Well, keep flossing.

You know, to try to…

Elle: Yes. I do floss.

So that’s good.

That’s good.

Shelby: I know you have a dentist in your family, so, um, maybe, maybe you’re better about, um, dental hygiene than, than most.

I try to stay up on my flossing habit, but I’m not very good at it.

Um, but that’s, that’s interesting to know.

It’s, it’s interesting to hear about your experience.

Cause, yeah, I’m only three weeks deep into like my healthy lifestyle.

And I was thinking the same, like, oh, this is easy.

So it’s good to be forewarned.

Elle: It may stay easy.

It may stay easy for you, you know, everyone’s different, but I’m definitely finding, um, and I mentioned this to you before, Instagram accounts…

I don’t think you’re on Instagram though, but or, wherever, you know, Reddit or wherever you’re active.

Um, these sober accounts, uh, such, such great inspiration.

Um, yeah.

There’s everything from mocktail recipes to, you know, those little, uh, affirmations, um, ideas for quit lit, which is, as you can imagine, literature about quitting alcohol.

That’s great.

Quit, quit lit.

Um, I read, I’ve read a couple of books, so it’s all… It’s good to have a community, um, or even a person I find with this kind of goal, uh, where you can, you can look at a day, can connect with every day and just remind yourself, okay.

Yes, this is hard.

Sometimes it will be hard, but I can do it and I should keep doing it because why, why not?

It’s what, if it’s what you want?

You know, your good self, your higher self, that knows what’s good for you once it, and then there’s the lower self that wants that quick relaxing fix or whatever, they’re fighting all the time.

So.

Shelby: Exactly.

Elle: Yeah.

Shelby: So what will be the first thing that you do when you are feeling a craving?

Like, do you go for the whipped cream dessert on fruit or go for the, the like sober Instagram page or something else?

Elle: Probably the Instagram and I’ll try to get active too.

I like to organize things.

So if I’m feeling particularly, you know, “cravey”, like I could really do with a glass of wine, I’ll go and organize like my closet or I’ll do a, you know, the Marie Kondo pulling out all of your clothes, seeing what sparks joy and what no longer sparks joy, getting rid of those things.

That’s always, it always improves my mood.

So I feel like, uh, you know, I suddenly, I don’t feel in control because I want something that I’m trying not to have, that craving.

Um, and so doing something like organizing makes me feel in control again.

And so that’s the first thing I try.

Yeah.

How about you when you have a craving, what do you do to fight it?

Shelby: Um, I think, uh…

Elle: I guess, you haven’t yet though, right?

Shelby: Yeah, no, I mean, I haven’t, um, necessarily… like I’ve like had the thought crossed my mind, like, Oh, I want a beer.

Um, You know, even just like straight up forgetting, that I quit.

So like I went to the fridge one time and I was like, Hey, I’m not doing this.

So, um, you know, it’s kind of like a fleeting thought.

Um, but you know, I’ll have like cravings for other things that I’m trying to avoid or, you know, my, my habits and goals just come down to, um, prioritizing my health, um, pretty much over like everything else.

And as you know, that gets like, boring.

And so when I’m feeling like restless or like indulgent, um, I will try to get out of my head and into my body.

So that means like doing one of the habits that I set out to do anyway, which is maybe doing some yoga.

Or going for a walk or I’ll, I’ll work out.

I have like a little like home gym.

I mean, it’s just like free weights and, um, a yoga mat and some exercise bands.

So it’s really easy to move around with.

Um, but I have found that, um, like doing something physical will usually help reset me.

Um, and or journaling, like, cause if I have a lot on my mind, if I’m feeling stressed, I will just, and my journaling has become totally digital.

Um, just cause it’s so much more convenient.

So I’ll pull up an Evernote on my computer or phone and just kind of start typing about like, What am I, what am I craving?

Um, what, what am I feeling?

And just through that process, I’m sort of like venting, um, even if it’s just to myself in I note, um, and maybe I’ll, I will understand the source of how I feel.

And once I understand that it’s easier to address it and kind of treat it.

Elle: Then yeah.

Moving forward if you feel that trigger coming on, you can be, you can act quicker, which is always, always good.

Shelby: Yeah.

You can like understand why we’re feeling that way and yeah, that’s super helpful.

Yeah.

Elle: I read somewhere that a craving lasts 20 minutes.

Typically, if you can distract yourself or, you know, get out, like you say, out of your head, into your body…

Shelby: Right.

Elle: …for, for 20 minutes from the beginning of it, should dissipate.

I mean, of course everyone’s different.

Maybe it lasts longer for some people, but it’s kind of good to know.

Cause 20 minutes, isn’t a long time.

It is a long time when you really want something that you shouldn’t, or you’re trying to avoid.

Shelby: Right.

Elle: But…

Shelby: Exactly.

It’s like torture at that point, but, um…

Elle: It is, it is totally like torture.

Shelby: Yeah, but if you, I mean, that’s, I, I haven’t noticed like the 20 minute thing, but I’ve certainly noticed the cravings always pass. Right.

Like, it’s kind of a feeling and I know that feelings are temporary.

Um, and just the same way that like, um, Like our appetites are, are temporary too.

Um, I remember watching some, I think it was like a Jerry Seinfeld standup from a long time ago.

That was just, he had a little bit where he’s like, you know, when you’re a kid, your parents tell you like you can’t eat cookies before dinner because they’re going to spoil your appetite.

But as an adult, you know, that like, if you spoil your appetite, you’ve got another one coming a little bit later.

Maybe I will eat cookies before dinner.

That doesn’t, that’s not really on topic.

Um, with what we’re talking about.

I think the other thing is… Sorry, I just, I think the other thing is like having a grace with yourself too.

So like, if I am, I don’t know, like feeling indulgent and I want to indulge in something like some ice cream or some snacks, um, maybe I’ll just do that, you know, and tell myself like, okay, like you did everything else

well, like you can do this and it’s not the end of the world, you know?

Um, just, um…

Elle: yeah.

Shelby: Keeping healthy otherwise.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

Everything in moderation.

And of course I have this issue with, like you say, you have this goal and then when you break it even a little, just a little ice cream or, you know, say I had a sip of red wine the way my mind works, and this is not good,

I hate it, I’m trying to work on it is I feel like, well, that’s all destroyed now.

So I may as well go back to doing whatever, like with language learning with my French it really fell off at the end of 2020.

And I felt like I had, you know, it’s all ruined, so just forget about it.

Uh, it’s it’s a tough mindset to, to, to remove yourself from.

It’s like, okay, you know, you can’t, you can’t be perfect,

you know, there is no such thing just because you fall off and, you know, have some ice cream.

That doesn’t mean that the next day you can’t carry on with your.

Your goal and eat better, so…

Shelby: Right.

Well, and what you described, that’s a really common, um, frame of mind and that’s why, um, that’s actually, why, so many of us don’t necessarily stick to certain habits because, you know, we were on a roll and then we, um, you know, fall off the wagon one time and then exactly,

we feel we failed.

So then it’s like, okay, well, Um, I lost a bunch of progress basically since my streak is that far broken, you know, but, um, James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, um, said, Oh, um, he’s like never miss twice.

Right.

Like don’t, don’t miss twice in a row.

So like, if I fail one day, you know, if you have a sip of red wine or whatever, just remind yourself, um, just not again tomorrow, you know, and get through the next day.

And it’s the same reason why actually I’ve been on like an 80%, um, vegan and gluten-free diet for the last five and a half years. And.

It’s because like I, well with, I mean, we talked a little bit about, uh, when I was in Chile, I certainly gave in more than normal, but basically if I eat meat once a week, instead of once a day, I’m still like… compounded over time,

I’m probably going to be healthier than if I was eating it every day.

But if I tell myself like, Oh, I ate chicken last night.

So I guess I’m not vegan anymore.

Like we’re so worried about the label kind of, um, like I’m sober, but I had a glass of red wine last night.

I think we just need to kind of separate ourselves from the label.

And remember that you’re still so far, like you’re so much further than you were when you started, even if you slip up one time and you’re like so much closer to the person that you want to be, even if you slip up. So.

Elle: Exactly and just comparing ourselves I find ,too, you know, the, the you of last week, last month, last year, instead of anyone, anyone else, you know, is, is really important and hard to do, because we’re so confronted with everyone’s narratives these days with social media and just media in general, the internet.

So, yeah.

Yeah, that’s a good one to remember for sure.

And I’ve, I’ve been having nightmares actually about drinking.

So that’s an interesting point you say, yeah.

I’ve had around, around three now and in every one i, I don’t intentionally drink.

I just, I just drink and forget that I’m sober.

And then afterwards I’m like, Oh no, I had a beer, I’m supposed to be sober!

And I wake up like, Oh, thank goodness.

Shelby: Yeah.

I think that because you know, like you’re, you’re really trying, like you’re making a difference in your everyday life and it’s, it’s funny how that can appear in your dreams too.

Elle: Oh yeah. Big time.

And I almost drank some of my husband’s beer the other day.

We both had the same glass.

I have my fake beer, which is really good actually.

And he had a real beer.

Picked up his and I went to drink and he’s like, no.

Oh my God, what if I’d had a sip?

Like, that’s it.

Done.

It’s so silly.

But sometimes we do that to ourselves.

You know, it’s like this black and white absolutist thinking that it’s really not helpful.

We need to be kinder and you know, more…

Shelby: Absolutely.

Have more grace with ourselves.

Elle: Yes, a hundred percent.